Based on the numbers and growth, the Senior Center needs to expand. It is clear from the people that spoke in support of the Senior Center and the Senior Center's data that they have wide support in West County, well beyond the tiny 2 square mile city limits of Sebastopol. I would love to see the Senior Center work with Supervisor Hopkins and gain County support for an expansion. Perhaps, the El Molino Campus could be utilized or perhaps, the Senior Center with the other non profits could buy one of the O'Reilly buildings and create a West County Non Profit Community hub? All this can be done without any involvement from the City, which doesn't have the capacity or resources. In my opinion, it would be great if some the O'Reilly buildings were converted to senior housing rentals targeted at 30-60% of Average Median Income. That would provide "missing in the middle housing." It could also be converted to live work spaces or a co-housing development. As commercial vacancy is high, converting to housing might be the best use of the space as the buildings already exist. It would be ideal to have one building with the Senior Center and other nonprofits and the rest of the campus converted to housing. I wonder if Habitat for Humanity has ever done an office conversion. Habitat for Humanity is a great organization and their housing is aimed at working people and fills the "missing in the middle" gap. Or maybe O'Reilly could partner with local school districts to provide moderate income rentals to people who teach and work in the schools. It seems there would be money out there to convert to moderate income, works force housing as Sebastopol has met its no and low income housing goals, the City would benefit from workforce housing. At any rate, I think housing could be the solution to the O'Reilly vacancy and the City could be supportive of opening up the zoning there to allow for housing.
Amen! Thank god the council seems to actually be putting a fork in yet another "non-profit-inspired" idea that we have neither the money nor the reason to pursue. Sebastopol has a VERY clear "Downtown" area and, regardless of whether or not that sprawling building is just sitting there vacant or not, it's on the OUTSKIRTS of town and anything BUT "walkable." If and when we actually have a red cent of surplus to pursue ideas like this they should be within an 1/8th of a mile from the town square and all of the actual DOWNTOWN businesses. It's funny that Lawrence Jaffe chose to quote Henry Ford as his "visionary" muse whom we should all be inspired by and channeling to get this strange project further down the road. In 1938, the German Nazi regime awarded Ford the Grand Cross of the German Eagle, its highest honor for a foreign national, because of his racist writings and ideology. Not sure I'd be bringing Henry up in my last ditch effort to get people to buy into this ill-advised, ill-conceived money-hemorrhaging and suspiciously corrupt pursuit. Whoops! I think Haug's idea is much better idea. WE NEED HOUSING and WE NEED REVENUE. Full stop. All other ideas should be checked at the door and held outside the velvet rope right now. And as Haug also suggests: GET THE COUNTY TO PAY FOR MORE SUPPORTIVE SERVICES, ALREADY! We're well past our quota and outrageously over-leveraged on that front already! Enough is enough!
The same sentiment has been expressed by Steve Jobs and others. Nobody can know what they would want if they haven't seen it before. It isn't a commentary on the people asked, it's a recognition of the pitfalls of surveys and the public process. Lawrence has seen what's possible when people work together and he provided an easy analogy for those that haven't. By your logic, nobody should drive an F150. Let's stick to the topic at hand, which is your support for disincorporating Sebastopol. That would be a worthwhile debate, which I won't add to in this particular article's comment section.
Occidental, Forestville, Bodega, Bodega Bay, Cazadero, Duncans Mills, Freestone, Geyserville, Glen Ellen, Graton, Guerneville, Jenner, Kenwood, Sea Ranch, the list goes on. All financially better-run and managed. All unincorporated. All delivering WAY more value to their tax base (newer younger home owners like me who are paying the lion's share of SEBs property taxes while older generation folks squander and piss away our hard-earned money). Please continue to "dox me" for being fine with joining the ranks of better run unincorporated cities. That's 100% accurate and does, in fact, fully reflect my POV. That said, as long as City Council continues to turn my wallet upside down to take my Taxes and mis-allocate money from my Water bill, I will continue to take a very active and very vested interest in the follies of City Council and others who want to waste even more of my money on un-mandated "Supportive services" ideas. I also LOVE The Grange. I was recently there at a S.O.U.P. event and it was absolutely wonderful. It's a very lovely little community venue and bravo to Lawrence and others for running it. But the idea of putting the commons at the very tip of the northern edge of Sebastopol's city limits isn't something Steve Jobs would have found smart, and, Henry Ford might have stopped writing Racist Anti-Semetic ramblings to also point out how odd it is to put something vital to the community so far on the outskirts of town! That location could only be generously described as "the sticks," relative to the town square, and our actual DOWNTOWN, an area that the planning commission and others have been trying to revitalize for a decade now. Steve Jobs is rolling over in his grave at the idea of a "community" center type development being that far out of town and squirming at the absurd invocation.
By no means a "dox". I do believe that would be a worthwhile debate, because it gets to the heart of a lot of the discourse in these comments. See you at SOUP on Thursday night. Lawrence and I co-sponsored the last one.
I am glad you see it as a worthy debate. Rolling back to County doesn't imply any negative consequences to the quality of town, as evidenced by all the wonderful unincorporated cities all around us. That said, I don't think you'd get much traction from City Council, Planning Commission, and all the city-admin-guzzling employees, who have financial skin in that game. They're only going to relent if the City can't come up with revenue and rescue itself from Chapter 9. Full disclosure, I also financially support SOUP's admin costs. Love what they're doing. Glad they're having another even this week. Super fun stuff.
The Council should be commended for making the right decision for the citizens of Sebastopol. The city just cannot afford the O'Reilly buildings. The cost and risk are just too high. The only facility the city should be completely responsible for is city hall. The library and Senior Center are regional facilities that should be financed largely on a regional basis. The library is wonderful and busy but I have never seen it over crowded. I wish there was more shelf space for you know, like books. I have never been in the Senior Center but those who have really like it.
Here are a few off the wall ideas.
- Shared library with the HS. Retire the old chestnuts of secrurity, insurance, policy, bla bla and make it happen. Other towns do this.
- Do all Senior Center Classes have to be at the Senior Center? Can some be elsewhere?
- Investigate remote work to reduce office space needs thus cost. Many organizations do this.
- Take a hard look a the Rite Aid building, it may be a good candidate for a library and senior center and it's closer to the HS.
- How is Sebastopol using AI to increase efficiency?
The Council Members made the right decision. The City cannot take on this financial and administrative burden. There was a lot of positive research that came out of this. 1) The Senior Center needs to expand, 2) 50% or more of the Senior Center members are West County residents, 3) People want the O'Reilly Complex activated, 4) the County can play a role as 35% of Sebastopol Property tax goes to the County and 2.5% of Sebastopol Property tax goes to the library. There is a lot of commercial property for sale in Sebastopol. Perhaps the County could buy and annex a piece of property, like they did with the Sebastopol Inn, annex it and build a library/senior center complex without any involvement from the City. The Art Center/ VA building is owned by the County and it serves Sebastopol, West County and beyond.
I was disappointed in this outcome. The committee did a lot of work and presented their findings well. I belong to the Senior Center and classes are full making it difficult to enjoy…
Using the research generated by the committee, the Senior Center should move forward on its own with the County. There is no need to give up just because the City of Sebastopol doesn't have the capacity or finances to operate a project of this scale. The Senior Center still has its needs. Over 50% of its members live in West County. Lynda Hopkins represents them - not the Sebastopol City Council. The West County folks should reach out to Supervisor Hopkins and say they want an expanded Senior Center to meet their needs. Supervisor Hopkins is their representative, they should be meeting with her and not the Sebastopol City Council.
Although I was one of the naysayers (I REALLY like the walkability of the current library location) I just want to express my appreciation for Phil and Kent and the many others who have put their sweat into this effort. I truly believe it was a labor of love for our community, and I appreciate it
I would like to know what the county and the Library would put forward to help with the funding. What Mr. Carter said about the child care and senior center options seem so necessary and I know the Sebastopol branch of this library is woefully small for the use it receives. O'Reilly seems centrally located and those of us outside the city would love to know parking was available, which it often isn't currently. As a Senior I am unhappy that our senior center is so small, inadequate, compared to others in the county. As for "downtown" shopping, this plan would provide more parking for customers coming into town to shop and eat at local restaurants. Thanks to the Sebastopol Times for reporting on this meeting.
The County could buy the buildings to house the library and Senior Center - like the Rite Aid building or the current library and Senior Center - and annex them in the same way they purchased the Sebastopol Inn and annexed it for Permanent Supportive Housing. The County and the library could then develop these plots for Sebastopol Area Library and Senior Center complex. The Sebastopol Center for the Arts building is owned by the County and does an amazing job serving West County and beyond. The City does not need to own these buildings. In fact, as the City has limited administrative and financial abilities it is unlikely that the City would ever have the means to pull off a multi-million dollar, multi-year library expansion. It would be much more likely that the County and Library together could come together and create a beautiful space. The Library and Senior Center both have separate foundations and can raise money for expansion and other purposes. Both organizations are extremely well run. There is no need for the City to own the library building or the Senior Center building because these organizations, like the Art Center, serve Sebastopol and West County. In addition, Sebastopol pays 35% of its property tax to the County and 2.5% of its property tax to the Library. Sebastopol generates money to support the County and the library. There is no reason why it needs to have the additional costs of a building and administration. People who want to see the senior center expand should contact Lynda Hopkins and tell her to start working on a plan.
Sebastopol should put these services at the O'Reilly spot. It's along the bike trail, and it would go a long way in broadening our downtown beyond the Barlow. While I understand it will be harder for senior citizens who live downtown to walk there, I don't know how many senior citizens live downtown. The other services it provides will be easily accessible to everyone else at that location.
I'm also irritated at the about-face on our volunteers who spent countless hours (including a small business owner!!) making recommendations and the Mayor responded quite vapidly.
Bianca, I think the volunteer work was productive. I believe it will yield results. What was learned was 1) the Senior Center needs to expand, 2) at least 50% of people using the Senior Center are West County residents, 3) people want to see the O'Reilly space activated, 4) the City does not have the resources nor the money to finance and operate an operation of this scale, 5) the County needs to play a role in this as Sebastopol gives 35% of its tax money to the County and West County residents give 50% of their tax money to the County. Perhaps the County could purchase a building and move both the Senior Center and the Library into a County owned facility. Recently, it was announced that Occidental is upgrading their library and it is an easy move as the County owned the building the library was moving to. I have a feeling the Sebastopol library expansion has been hindered because the City doesn't have the administrative or financial ability to oversee an expansion. There is no reason why a library serving the Sebastopol area needs to be owned by the City. The County annexed the Sebastopol Inn when it purchased that for Permanent Supportive Housing. There is no reason why the County could not purchase the Rite Aid plot or some other plot in downtown Sebastopol and annex it and then create a library there or a combination library/ Senior Center. The City of Sebastopol does not need to own the library building to have a library that serves the Sebastopol area. Case in point is the Art Center. That building is owned by the County. Perhaps the City could sell the County the current library and senior center and then the County could develop a library and senior center in that area.
I am so disappointed. There are no really great other choices. The building is clean, fairly new etc. The Senior Center is in an old house. The library was built in a building where they did not install moisture block. And the parking is terrible.
The County can always step in. If you live in West County, Lynda Hopkins is your representative. If you live in West County (not within Sebastopol City Limits), contact Supervisor Hopkins and ask her to buy a building for the library and Senior Center. There is no reason why the City needs to own either one of these buildings as they are County wide services. Ask Supervisor Hopkins to purchase one of the O'Reilly buildings and head up a library expansion. The County could annex one of these buildings just like they did with the Sebastopol Inn. The Arts Center is also a County owned building. The County can work directly with the Senior Center. There is no reason why the City needs to be involved. Many people in West County are looking to the Sebastopol City Council to represent them when their government representative is Lynda Hopkins.
Archaic but still correct: Early transport vehicles—including wagons, trains, bicycles, and early automobiles—used hand levers, cables, or external levers that a driver or operator physically pulled to engage the brake shoes against the wheels or tracks.Over time, as foot pedals became standard in cars, related automotive variants like "slam on the brakes" or "pump the brakes" emerged from modern driving habits
Well, first of all, you’re right about the history. But you gotta understand I’m a guy that owns three specialized sports cars and is the president of the Bohemian Motor Club of West County. So I speak with some authority when I say that “Pull” has become so archaic that’s just plain wrong.
Steve, I'm curious if you've ever described filming a video on your phone, rolling up your car windows automatically, or carbon copying (cc) someone on an email? These are called *linguistic skeuomorphs* and they happen in everylanguage. They're not wrong, just archaic 🤠
Based on the numbers and growth, the Senior Center needs to expand. It is clear from the people that spoke in support of the Senior Center and the Senior Center's data that they have wide support in West County, well beyond the tiny 2 square mile city limits of Sebastopol. I would love to see the Senior Center work with Supervisor Hopkins and gain County support for an expansion. Perhaps, the El Molino Campus could be utilized or perhaps, the Senior Center with the other non profits could buy one of the O'Reilly buildings and create a West County Non Profit Community hub? All this can be done without any involvement from the City, which doesn't have the capacity or resources. In my opinion, it would be great if some the O'Reilly buildings were converted to senior housing rentals targeted at 30-60% of Average Median Income. That would provide "missing in the middle housing." It could also be converted to live work spaces or a co-housing development. As commercial vacancy is high, converting to housing might be the best use of the space as the buildings already exist. It would be ideal to have one building with the Senior Center and other nonprofits and the rest of the campus converted to housing. I wonder if Habitat for Humanity has ever done an office conversion. Habitat for Humanity is a great organization and their housing is aimed at working people and fills the "missing in the middle" gap. Or maybe O'Reilly could partner with local school districts to provide moderate income rentals to people who teach and work in the schools. It seems there would be money out there to convert to moderate income, works force housing as Sebastopol has met its no and low income housing goals, the City would benefit from workforce housing. At any rate, I think housing could be the solution to the O'Reilly vacancy and the City could be supportive of opening up the zoning there to allow for housing.
Amen! Thank god the council seems to actually be putting a fork in yet another "non-profit-inspired" idea that we have neither the money nor the reason to pursue. Sebastopol has a VERY clear "Downtown" area and, regardless of whether or not that sprawling building is just sitting there vacant or not, it's on the OUTSKIRTS of town and anything BUT "walkable." If and when we actually have a red cent of surplus to pursue ideas like this they should be within an 1/8th of a mile from the town square and all of the actual DOWNTOWN businesses. It's funny that Lawrence Jaffe chose to quote Henry Ford as his "visionary" muse whom we should all be inspired by and channeling to get this strange project further down the road. In 1938, the German Nazi regime awarded Ford the Grand Cross of the German Eagle, its highest honor for a foreign national, because of his racist writings and ideology. Not sure I'd be bringing Henry up in my last ditch effort to get people to buy into this ill-advised, ill-conceived money-hemorrhaging and suspiciously corrupt pursuit. Whoops! I think Haug's idea is much better idea. WE NEED HOUSING and WE NEED REVENUE. Full stop. All other ideas should be checked at the door and held outside the velvet rope right now. And as Haug also suggests: GET THE COUNTY TO PAY FOR MORE SUPPORTIVE SERVICES, ALREADY! We're well past our quota and outrageously over-leveraged on that front already! Enough is enough!
The same sentiment has been expressed by Steve Jobs and others. Nobody can know what they would want if they haven't seen it before. It isn't a commentary on the people asked, it's a recognition of the pitfalls of surveys and the public process. Lawrence has seen what's possible when people work together and he provided an easy analogy for those that haven't. By your logic, nobody should drive an F150. Let's stick to the topic at hand, which is your support for disincorporating Sebastopol. That would be a worthwhile debate, which I won't add to in this particular article's comment section.
Occidental, Forestville, Bodega, Bodega Bay, Cazadero, Duncans Mills, Freestone, Geyserville, Glen Ellen, Graton, Guerneville, Jenner, Kenwood, Sea Ranch, the list goes on. All financially better-run and managed. All unincorporated. All delivering WAY more value to their tax base (newer younger home owners like me who are paying the lion's share of SEBs property taxes while older generation folks squander and piss away our hard-earned money). Please continue to "dox me" for being fine with joining the ranks of better run unincorporated cities. That's 100% accurate and does, in fact, fully reflect my POV. That said, as long as City Council continues to turn my wallet upside down to take my Taxes and mis-allocate money from my Water bill, I will continue to take a very active and very vested interest in the follies of City Council and others who want to waste even more of my money on un-mandated "Supportive services" ideas. I also LOVE The Grange. I was recently there at a S.O.U.P. event and it was absolutely wonderful. It's a very lovely little community venue and bravo to Lawrence and others for running it. But the idea of putting the commons at the very tip of the northern edge of Sebastopol's city limits isn't something Steve Jobs would have found smart, and, Henry Ford might have stopped writing Racist Anti-Semetic ramblings to also point out how odd it is to put something vital to the community so far on the outskirts of town! That location could only be generously described as "the sticks," relative to the town square, and our actual DOWNTOWN, an area that the planning commission and others have been trying to revitalize for a decade now. Steve Jobs is rolling over in his grave at the idea of a "community" center type development being that far out of town and squirming at the absurd invocation.
By no means a "dox". I do believe that would be a worthwhile debate, because it gets to the heart of a lot of the discourse in these comments. See you at SOUP on Thursday night. Lawrence and I co-sponsored the last one.
I am glad you see it as a worthy debate. Rolling back to County doesn't imply any negative consequences to the quality of town, as evidenced by all the wonderful unincorporated cities all around us. That said, I don't think you'd get much traction from City Council, Planning Commission, and all the city-admin-guzzling employees, who have financial skin in that game. They're only going to relent if the City can't come up with revenue and rescue itself from Chapter 9. Full disclosure, I also financially support SOUP's admin costs. Love what they're doing. Glad they're having another even this week. Super fun stuff.
The Council should be commended for making the right decision for the citizens of Sebastopol. The city just cannot afford the O'Reilly buildings. The cost and risk are just too high. The only facility the city should be completely responsible for is city hall. The library and Senior Center are regional facilities that should be financed largely on a regional basis. The library is wonderful and busy but I have never seen it over crowded. I wish there was more shelf space for you know, like books. I have never been in the Senior Center but those who have really like it.
Here are a few off the wall ideas.
- Shared library with the HS. Retire the old chestnuts of secrurity, insurance, policy, bla bla and make it happen. Other towns do this.
- Do all Senior Center Classes have to be at the Senior Center? Can some be elsewhere?
- Investigate remote work to reduce office space needs thus cost. Many organizations do this.
- Take a hard look a the Rite Aid building, it may be a good candidate for a library and senior center and it's closer to the HS.
- How is Sebastopol using AI to increase efficiency?
Thanks again to the councilmembers.
The Council Members made the right decision. The City cannot take on this financial and administrative burden. There was a lot of positive research that came out of this. 1) The Senior Center needs to expand, 2) 50% or more of the Senior Center members are West County residents, 3) People want the O'Reilly Complex activated, 4) the County can play a role as 35% of Sebastopol Property tax goes to the County and 2.5% of Sebastopol Property tax goes to the library. There is a lot of commercial property for sale in Sebastopol. Perhaps the County could buy and annex a piece of property, like they did with the Sebastopol Inn, annex it and build a library/senior center complex without any involvement from the City. The Art Center/ VA building is owned by the County and it serves Sebastopol, West County and beyond.
I was disappointed in this outcome. The committee did a lot of work and presented their findings well. I belong to the Senior Center and classes are full making it difficult to enjoy…
Using the research generated by the committee, the Senior Center should move forward on its own with the County. There is no need to give up just because the City of Sebastopol doesn't have the capacity or finances to operate a project of this scale. The Senior Center still has its needs. Over 50% of its members live in West County. Lynda Hopkins represents them - not the Sebastopol City Council. The West County folks should reach out to Supervisor Hopkins and say they want an expanded Senior Center to meet their needs. Supervisor Hopkins is their representative, they should be meeting with her and not the Sebastopol City Council.
Although I was one of the naysayers (I REALLY like the walkability of the current library location) I just want to express my appreciation for Phil and Kent and the many others who have put their sweat into this effort. I truly believe it was a labor of love for our community, and I appreciate it
I would like to know what the county and the Library would put forward to help with the funding. What Mr. Carter said about the child care and senior center options seem so necessary and I know the Sebastopol branch of this library is woefully small for the use it receives. O'Reilly seems centrally located and those of us outside the city would love to know parking was available, which it often isn't currently. As a Senior I am unhappy that our senior center is so small, inadequate, compared to others in the county. As for "downtown" shopping, this plan would provide more parking for customers coming into town to shop and eat at local restaurants. Thanks to the Sebastopol Times for reporting on this meeting.
The County could buy the buildings to house the library and Senior Center - like the Rite Aid building or the current library and Senior Center - and annex them in the same way they purchased the Sebastopol Inn and annexed it for Permanent Supportive Housing. The County and the library could then develop these plots for Sebastopol Area Library and Senior Center complex. The Sebastopol Center for the Arts building is owned by the County and does an amazing job serving West County and beyond. The City does not need to own these buildings. In fact, as the City has limited administrative and financial abilities it is unlikely that the City would ever have the means to pull off a multi-million dollar, multi-year library expansion. It would be much more likely that the County and Library together could come together and create a beautiful space. The Library and Senior Center both have separate foundations and can raise money for expansion and other purposes. Both organizations are extremely well run. There is no need for the City to own the library building or the Senior Center building because these organizations, like the Art Center, serve Sebastopol and West County. In addition, Sebastopol pays 35% of its property tax to the County and 2.5% of its property tax to the Library. Sebastopol generates money to support the County and the library. There is no reason why it needs to have the additional costs of a building and administration. People who want to see the senior center expand should contact Lynda Hopkins and tell her to start working on a plan.
With so many folks outside the city using city services why isn’t the county involved in solving this problem.
Sebastopol should put these services at the O'Reilly spot. It's along the bike trail, and it would go a long way in broadening our downtown beyond the Barlow. While I understand it will be harder for senior citizens who live downtown to walk there, I don't know how many senior citizens live downtown. The other services it provides will be easily accessible to everyone else at that location.
I'm also irritated at the about-face on our volunteers who spent countless hours (including a small business owner!!) making recommendations and the Mayor responded quite vapidly.
Bianca, I think the volunteer work was productive. I believe it will yield results. What was learned was 1) the Senior Center needs to expand, 2) at least 50% of people using the Senior Center are West County residents, 3) people want to see the O'Reilly space activated, 4) the City does not have the resources nor the money to finance and operate an operation of this scale, 5) the County needs to play a role in this as Sebastopol gives 35% of its tax money to the County and West County residents give 50% of their tax money to the County. Perhaps the County could purchase a building and move both the Senior Center and the Library into a County owned facility. Recently, it was announced that Occidental is upgrading their library and it is an easy move as the County owned the building the library was moving to. I have a feeling the Sebastopol library expansion has been hindered because the City doesn't have the administrative or financial ability to oversee an expansion. There is no reason why a library serving the Sebastopol area needs to be owned by the City. The County annexed the Sebastopol Inn when it purchased that for Permanent Supportive Housing. There is no reason why the County could not purchase the Rite Aid plot or some other plot in downtown Sebastopol and annex it and then create a library there or a combination library/ Senior Center. The City of Sebastopol does not need to own the library building to have a library that serves the Sebastopol area. Case in point is the Art Center. That building is owned by the County. Perhaps the City could sell the County the current library and senior center and then the County could develop a library and senior center in that area.
I am so disappointed. There are no really great other choices. The building is clean, fairly new etc. The Senior Center is in an old house. The library was built in a building where they did not install moisture block. And the parking is terrible.
The County can always step in. If you live in West County, Lynda Hopkins is your representative. If you live in West County (not within Sebastopol City Limits), contact Supervisor Hopkins and ask her to buy a building for the library and Senior Center. There is no reason why the City needs to own either one of these buildings as they are County wide services. Ask Supervisor Hopkins to purchase one of the O'Reilly buildings and head up a library expansion. The County could annex one of these buildings just like they did with the Sebastopol Inn. The Arts Center is also a County owned building. The County can work directly with the Senior Center. There is no reason why the City needs to be involved. Many people in West County are looking to the Sebastopol City Council to represent them when their government representative is Lynda Hopkins.
Laura, a great, great piece. But one quibble, that headline, as a car guy, should be “steps on the brakes” not “pulls.”
Archaic but still correct: Early transport vehicles—including wagons, trains, bicycles, and early automobiles—used hand levers, cables, or external levers that a driver or operator physically pulled to engage the brake shoes against the wheels or tracks.Over time, as foot pedals became standard in cars, related automotive variants like "slam on the brakes" or "pump the brakes" emerged from modern driving habits
Well, first of all, you’re right about the history. But you gotta understand I’m a guy that owns three specialized sports cars and is the president of the Bohemian Motor Club of West County. So I speak with some authority when I say that “Pull” has become so archaic that’s just plain wrong.
Steve, I'm curious if you've ever described filming a video on your phone, rolling up your car windows automatically, or carbon copying (cc) someone on an email? These are called *linguistic skeuomorphs* and they happen in everylanguage. They're not wrong, just archaic 🤠